Japanese animation industry

[Brad Gerst]

This article was sent to me and I thought I would post it here for others to read. Any thoughts or opinions on this developing trend?



QUICK DISSOLVE: Spirited away: As merchandisers grow rich, the animation industry is losing jobs to cheaper labor abroad.

By YUZURU TAKANO and KIYOHIDE INADA: The Asahi Shimbun

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`Unless something is done, Japanese anime will be ruined.' KOICHI MURATA President of animation company Oh Production
For all the fat profits that Japanese animation generates from merchandise these days, the wallets of the animators who piece the cartoons together are as thin as the cels they painstakingly paint.

To take one example, the worldwide market for the video games and merchandise related to the late-1990s cartoon series Pokemon is worth some 3 trillion yen.

Yet an animator, toiling away on cels in a tiny Tokyo studio, might be fortunate to pull in just 50,000 yen a month.

Much of the recent interest in, and the money for, Japanese animation, popularly known as anime, comes from abroad, notes Kiyokazu Matsumoto, president of Dream Ranch Inc., a Sony Music Group company.

Matsumoto said one U.S. toy manufacturer offered his company about $10 million (about 1.1 billion yen) for the rights to market merchandise featuring the characters of an animated cartoon his company hadn't even completed. The figure was particularly eye-popping for Matsumoto because it was 100 times what animated films earn on average from broadcasting rights in Japan.

The offer came just as Matsumoto and his company were starting to map out an animation based on illustrations by an artist whose works often appear on comic book covers.

Dream Ranch has since neared a deal with a Hollywood company to turn the story into a full-length animation.

In recent years, the trend has been to turn cartoon characters into merchandise and video games as quickly as possible.

It was the Pokemon series in the late 1990s that revolutionized the conventional notion that animation was first and foremost for the domestic market and the overseas market a mere side business.

Pokemon video games, stuffed dolls and other merchandise proved an instant success when they hit the U.S. market. About 120 million Pokemon video games have so far been shipped around the world. The Pokemon cartoon has aired in 68 nations.

The Tokyo-based company that manages the Pokemon copyright has licensing contracts with about 200 companies overseas and about 70 in Japan. About 2,000 items, including stationery and toys, now feature Pokemon characters.

Of course, international acclaim for Japanese animation is nothing new, having started with ``Astro Boy'' in the early 1960s.

More recently, Hayao Miyazaki's ``Spirited Away'' won the Golden Bear Award at the Berlin Film Festival in 2002 and then won Best Animated Feature Film at the Academy Awards the following year.

Mamoru Oshii's ``Innocence'' was screened at the Cannes Film Festival in May and will open at theaters in 10 major U.S. cities this fall.

The creators of ``Innocence'' are also fully aware of the ripeness of the overseas market for Japanese animation. In part to channel the animation toward the American mainstream, they spent about 2 billion yen making the film, an enormous amount in Japan for an animated feature. A sum of a similar level was also spent to make ``Spirited Away.'' Still, this is nowhere near what Hollywood spends on animated films, which cost the equivalent of about 10 billion yen each.

The sponsors of ``Innocence'' include major Japanese companies as well as the Disney group.

The producer of ``Innocence,'' Katsuji Morishita of the studio Production I.G., notes, ``Unlike conventional anime, we aimed for Hollywood from the beginning.''

Because Japanese animation creators have nowhere near the funds of Disney animators, they must make do with fewer frames and instead concentrate on creating appealing story lines. They also have at their disposal perhaps the largest number of comic books in the world to tap into for inspiration.

``Japanese animations tell good stories and are popular overseas, too,'' says Yasuki Hamano, a media professor at the University of Tokyo. ``They have a lot of potential to be competitive overseas.''

At the same time, however, the small subcontractors that have made Japanese animation such a big success are now fast losing out to competitors in South Korea and China, where labor costs are lower.

Many of the 70 or so subcontractors clustered in Tokyo's Suginami Ward are in a bind. Even as the cost of rent and paying animators rises, there has been no corresponding rise in production budgets.

One of those feeling the pinch is Oh Production, which created the cels for popular animations like ``Arupusu no Shojo Haiji'' and ``Chibi Maruko-chan.''

Disheartened by a monthly salary that tops out at 50,000 yen, a 26-year-old animator who joined the production team a year ago said, ``Sometimes I want to give up-I never imagined it would be like this.'' Only with parental financial support can the animator make ends meet. A single cel earns an animator 200 yen, yet might, if the image is complicated, take a whole day to make.

Of the approximately 440 animation production companies in the country, about 70 percent are small, with 30 workers or fewer, according to one estimate.

Such companies receive around 10 million yen for a single job from advertisers and sponsors. Sometimes, it isn't enough to cover costs.

The real money comes from broadcast rights, which are usually held by TV stations, publishers and major animation production companies. Consequently, the small subcontractors do not share in the windfall from thriving sales of merchandise featuring animated characters.

Many young animators, fed up with the low pay, quit in a few years. And with more and more cels getting painted in South Korea and China, many in the domestic industry worry about the ``hollowing out'' of the animation industry.

``Unless something is done, Japanese anime will be ruined,'' laments Oh Production President Koichi Murata. (IHT/Asahi: June 2,2004) (06/02)

[Shany]

actually animes has no resonable story lines what so ever.
iv seen lotsa anime movies and none of them made any sense and were just hell boring till i gave up on them [last ones were: 'princes moko'..something, 'spirited away'..etc.
animation was always beautiful thats for sure, but no story line..

well, the pokemon story as mentioned above was at first a video game -> turned into anime only to sell the video game -> movies (to sell the dolls) -> new video games.

its not the first time animation is created in order to market th toy line, it also happened in the 80's with cartoons like: transformers/gijoe..etc where hasbro always created new toy and featured it in the animation just to sell it.

anime suffers from what we call 'mass animation productions', there are too mabye anime movies, too mabye cartoons, too manue hentais..
so there fore the market is tight with allot of pressure, so no wonder animator gets low payment.

[Danimation]

It's scary to think about making so little working in those studios. 50,000 yen roughly converts to about $614 CAD, or $456. I know there is no way I could survive on that wage per month! Isn't Japan one of the most expensive places in the world to live as well? Crazy stuff. I guess there is no stopping the the studios getting work done outside of Japan, look what happened to North America's animation industry. (Insert game over noise here)

[Wade K]

actually animes has no resonable story lines what so ever.
iv seen lotsa anime movies and none of them made any sense and were just hell boring till i gave up on them [last ones were: 'princes moko'..something, 'spirited away'..etc.
animation was always beautiful thats for sure, but no story line...


Carefull with comments such as this, Shany, as they will probably spark outrage on the forum, and believe me, it is damned frustrating. As much as some of us hate Japanimation, there are many more who absolutely love it. I am with you though on your opinion... I think the stories and animation are absolutely LUDICROUS, but we have to be careful to mention that this is OUR PERSONAL opinion. And don't even get me STARTED on their ORIGINAL (?) character designs! I to wish the stuff would just go away, or stay in Japan, but too many over here like it. (I am in no way trying to cause an arguement on this...)


its not the first time animation is created in order to market th toy line, it also happened in the 80's with cartoons like: transformers/gijoe..etc where hasbro always created new toy and featured it in the animation just to sell it.


Lets not forget "Les Schtroumpfs" (did I spell that right?). The smurfs were a HUGE success due to their high-priced commercials. I hate to say it, but I really kind of liked the smurfs' series though. But then, back then I was young and knew nothing about animation, and I have not seen it since. Who knows what I would think of it now, now that I know more?

Cheers

[cybercyst]

It's scary to think about making so little working in those studios. 50,000 yen roughly converts to about $614 CAD, or $456.
...I just think it's funny that they make less than us, and yet their animation is still ten times as better.:D

[cybercyst]

By the way Shany...is your avatar not Ryu, from Capcom's 'Street Fighter' (made into an anime once)...?;) Whaddya dissin' on anime for?:D

http://anime-haven.net/streetfighterry.jpg

[grega]

Not a big fan of anime, I thought Spirited Away was over rated. However check out 'Metropolis' there's a kind of anime meets Tintin thing going on. A very cool film.

Saying all that I'm not a big fan of American animation either.

[Brad Gerst]

I agree, the Japanese do produce a lot of garbage animation, but occasionally you can find something decent that is worth watching. The article had me looking at the similarities between the situation here in the US and there in Japan. Studios here in the States went from producing all of their animations in house to sending some work out to other studios to sending most of the work to overseas studios to keep production costs down. The Japanese, who probably produce and watch more animation than any other nation in this world, seem to be following the trend. How long will it be before they are completely reliant upon South Korea, Philippines, India, China, etc. for nearly all of their animation production needs? Won’t this increase the cost of productions in those countries? As the cost of production in those countries increase, what effects does it have on the state of the industry here? Will it increase the job opportunities in North America? Slow down the production of animation? Or does it mean that another country will set up an industry to help meet everyone’s needs?

[pwassink]

actually animes has no resonable story lines what so ever.this must be the single most silly remark i have ever seen on the awn forum.
and then this one:
iv seen lotsa anime movies and none of them made any sense and were just hell boring till i gave up on them [last ones were: 'princes moko'..something, 'spirited away'..etc.
animation was always beautiful thats for sure, but no story line....i mean.....no storyline in princess Mononoke!? :confused: :confused: :confused:

o.k Shane it worked you managed to get a reaction on your post and i'm not even an anime fan.
i think a discussion on the difference approach to storytelling, between American and japanese films would be very interesting
but why put it so extremely provocative (because i assume you were not being serious)

[Shany]

By the way Shany...is your avatar not Ryu, from Capcom's 'Street Fighter' (made into an anime once)...?;) Whaddya dissin' on anime for?:D



yeah its ryu, the avatar is not from the anime movies, its from the ex3 game series.
i like the street fighter series as a 2d fighting game, it had 2 anime movies though, the first had a simple and folowing story line where there is no need to think.. just fighting each other, it is ridicules anyway, the art was pretty good compare to most extreme anime as we see today, the first movie was out around 1994 i think, so the anime wasn't that extreme at that time,

the second movie however is a complete waste of time to see & draw, there si no plot what so ever [even if they fight] the art is really awfull.
see the picture you put, not only the colors are dead, the character looks awfull as well.

capcom made really fine 2d games back than, it summerise with sf3:3rd strike , no game ever matched this one.

btw, as wade said, it is my PERSONAL ideas, other may think US animation [disney alike] is bad and anime is cool.
i didn't type to start a flame of war, just poiting out about my thoughs on anime.

@pwassink:
the whole point of my thread was to show that allot of anime movies/shows are created with no sense plot (ie: ghost in the shell, akira..and more) with fairly good animation, we do know japan ppl has good and wasted talent, just to produce what we call 'fast flick' to gain more money.
behold, most of those animes has fighting/blood/death and uncencored parts to keep the audience 'focused' while the story still has no sense.
i don't even count poor kids who watch those .

[cybercyst]

I think people judge Anime based on the stuff they put on channels like Kids' WB--like Pokemon and Digimon (and everything else that is distributed here in the states--totally laughable). This stuff IS garbage and has no storyline whatsoever.


For some reason, when people think of anime, they tend to think of the 'Disney' of Anime--Studio Ghibli (http://www.nausicaa.net/miyazaki/ghibli/). They made 'Spirited Away', 'Princess Mononoke,' 'Castle in the Sky', 'My Neighbor Totoro', 'Grave of the Fireflies', etc. These guys are good and their stories are memorable, but their style is restrictive (like Disney) and I wish Americans would explore the rest of the anime scene. There are sooooo many other anime titles out there.

I recommend these mainstream but good titles...these have good story but it seems you are looking for a style that differs from that of Studio Ghibli:
Perfect Blue (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00000JL42/qid=1086733888/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-4539898-5356835?v=glance&s=dvd)
Cowboy Bebop (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00007LLIV/qid=1086733931/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/002-4539898-5356835?v=glance&s=dvd) (a must-have for any Anime fan)
Ninja Scroll (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000B1OE7/qid=1086734121/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/002-4539898-5356835?v=glance&s=dvd)
Ghost in the Shell (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/6304493681/qid=1086734204/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-4539898-5356835?v=glance&s=dvd) (inspiration for the Wachowski's 'Matrix')
Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi (http://www.abenobashidvd.com/usual/usual.php) (there are both funny and serious episodes here)
Tenchi Muyo (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00000IBWR/qid=1086735133/sr=8-1/ref=pd_ka_1/002-4539898-5356835?v=glance&s=dvd&n=507846)
Neon Genesis Evangelion (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000639E0/qid=1086735277/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/002-4539898-5356835?v=glance&s=dvd)
Serial Experiments Lain (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00005NX1N/qid=1086735358/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-4539898-5356835?v=glance&s=dvd)

...I know I'm missing a lot of good ones, so Anime fans, please feel free to add to the list.

[JohnnyLethargic]

It is sad that so many jobs, including animation ones, are being exported to the lowest bidder. How many Ferraris do CEOs really need?
On the topic of poor anime plots, well, maybe they are just too subtle for some. We expect simple, cut and dry concepts (someone gets lost, someone else finds him/her, bad guys do something, good guys stop them) whereas japanese cartoons are more abstract and adult oriented, think of them as indie flicks of animation. Adult themes, complex problems, and maybe only a partial solution. and they make you think a bit. But hey, to each their own.

[Graphiteman]

When I was younger I was more dismissive of Japanese animation. But then again I was dismissive of everything after 1959 and Disney could do no wrong.

I generally like "anime". I do agree I sometimes I don't "get" plots but generally they are enjoyable to watch. After seeing Japanese versions I think sometimes our dubbing and reediting is to blame. That said, like the 2D vs 3D debate I only know of two types of animation; bad and good. They don't have to be alike but all the elements tend to be harmonious in a good cartoon.

But I also used to envy Japan because I coveted a national industry like theirs for us North Americans. Not so pretty is it, though? AH the grass is always greener.

[Harvey Human]

I'd have to say that the majority of North American 2D animation is pretty bad too, or maybe "mundane" is a better word. Look at the 2D films Disney and Dreamworks have made over the past decade: big snore.

The Japanese stuff probably sticks out more because of the cultural divide. They have different ways of telling and appreciating a story, and westerners (particularly Americans, with their short attention spans) expect a large degree of "wackiness" or "looniness" in their animation.

Personally, I think movies like Totoro, Akira, and Castle in the Sky are some of the most remarkable and inventive 2D films ever made. Anyway, millions of people all over the planet love anime and it's certainly better to have a variety of story-telling styles: this widens animation's appeal.

[MonkeyGirl]

could someone please give me an american equivalent to earning 50000 yen a month. Is that like mcDondalds payment in america or sweatshops?

I love LAIN! -sorry had to share.

[Wade K]

I believe that Graphiteman did actually say that 50000 yen per month was the equivelent of less than $500.00 USD. I think even working at McDonalds in the US pays more than this. I really do not know how they Japanimators are able to live off of that in, as also said by Graphiteman, one of the most expensive cities world-wide to live in.

Cheers

[Wade K]

...I just think it's funny that they make less than us, and yet their animation is still ten times as better.:D

That, again is your opinion. I strongly diagree with it, but that is mine. I personally find Japanimation to be very badly animated (completely lacking in the life department), with poor character designs, and poor in the story department. Plus, the lip synch never works! (Just kidding...). Props to the Japanese for their animated F/X though (that is the only thing that I like in these films with the exception of sometimes VERY beautiful hand-painted BG's). It amazes me that so many people think so highly of this stuff, but that is their perogative, I guess.

Cheers

[xjaca]

I think that opinion about anime depend on point of view. If somebody see only Pokemon or Sailormoon that his judge is different than somebody who know (and like) for example Mamoru Oshii movies.

I recommend animations by Makoto Shinkai "Hoshi No Koe" and "Kanojo To Kanojo No Neko" and new series from Madhouse Studio Texhnolyze (http://www.texhnolyzedvd.com/) (strongly recommend!)

[Harvey Human]

Spirited Away won the Academy Award, so they must be doing SOMETHING right.

One thing that North American animation RARELY offers us is stories with more thoughtful adult themes: animation which is less intellectually insulting. We produce plenty of stuff for pre-teens, but you usually have to go to the anime directors or the Chomets for more sophisticated styles and stories.

[Wade K]

Intellectual stories such as a little girl who goes to save her parents who were turned into pigs?

[joelpeet]

:D *Wade*, I think you miss the point. Spirited Away had nothing to do with a girl trying to save her parent transformed into pigs. Of course, it was a point in the anime, but the real plot (if we can call it like that) is more the journey of the girl from teenage mind to adulthood : question about responsiblity, courage, sensitivity to other, etc.
In fact, I must admit that this anime is not an usual one; It's more about poetry and 'onirism' than a real straightforward story. It's more about the girl's journey than her parents.

Oh yes, you spell it right ' the smurfs' is 'Les Schtroumpfs' in french. Did you know that Smurfs are coming from a belgian comics collection. They were created around the 60's in fact, first appearing in "La flûte à six Schtroumps" - I let you find the translation of that one. :D

*Shany*,
to say that "Ghost in the Shell" or "Akira" have no sense plot is not totally true. They have one. the real problem is that these two anime comes from manga (japanese comics) - so they are, in fact, a synthetic view of a collection of books. For instance, Akira have more than 7 volumes in is collection - so the comics is preferable in a sense to understand exactly what Akira is all about.


The whole problem with Anime/Manga vs USanimation/Comics is about how you understand life itself (i mean on the cultural area), and how you translate and share it to other (through animation, movies, comics,etc). For instance, look at movies from Akira Kurosawa or Tsui Ark, and compare it to John Huston or John Ford - the way they put the life of their character - and the sense of life itself - are not the same at all : on one side you will have the Oriental point of view, on the other the Occidental one - in fact, thinks can be translated in two ways of thinking :
- Yin and Yang for the Orientals
- Manichean for the Occidentals
everything we create is more or less bound to these two.

i wonder what could produce Native African, or Native American in that way. I know Africans are Animist, and Indians (USA) are Shamanic - so it's another way of thinking life than Oriental or Occidental.

[Shany]

a story supposed to have Start and End. (period)
it doesn't matters how many books/comics/ that movie had before.
the idea of a movie is to transfer to the audience the meaning of the characters, where they from, who are they, the meaning of them, and how they effects each other, and we need to see them develope thier personalities in the movie, movies like Ghost in the sheel, akira,..etc has soo many little from the above characterism that it makes the movie boring, un-enjoyable and just plan stupid, where the animation can be super good.
if the movie(s) fails on that, than i guess it wasn't ment to be made in the first place.
anime usually has no sense or plain story line, and the only thing they do is add extra violence and nonsense talking which leaves ya saying to your self 'huh?..hm..err' or alike thoughs :)
i haven't said anime is bad, but it has more than a few movies that shows how awfull the writers are.
btw, studios careless on good plot, so as i said they add extra violence,sex..etc.
watch allot of anime and see for your self, its a fact, not a fiction.

[joelpeet]

:) Ah, I agree with you about the storyline... if you are a Manichean : a beginning and an end. Yet, that's were we have probably a difficulty to understand some Japanime.
You, as me, were risen with that kind of thinking : good and bad, beginning and end, etc, etc. That's Manichean.

Normally, in a ideal script, things are supposed to be answered at the end of a movie/animation. Well, that's also our point of view.

In other culture things are not so clear or simple : a story does not necesserily answer everything at the end. Sometimes they do not answer anything at all, but let people choose for themselves what to think - (totally disturbing I must say). Japanimation can sometimes enter the last category, or the former, or go along our way of thinking a story with a beginning and an end.

It's the same with the characters : are people really totally good or bad? No! we are a mix of these two extremes : a certain percent of good and bad, sometimes more bad than good, sometimes more good than bad. That's the Yin-Yang view : nothing's totally good or bad. In good you can also have bad, in bad have good. Humanly speaking the yin-yang view is the better to describe human behaviour, or the cyclical ways of nature - what we can also see as "complementarity" as Male/Female, Wet/Dry, Hot/Cold, etc;

But, probably as you, I prefer a beginning and an end to a story - real life is difficult enough to understand. :D

[Wade K]

While we are on the subject of Japanimation... What is everyone's opinion of Japaimation porn. Apparently, it is quite big over there. I mean... Some of us got off on Jessica Rabbit (not me, of course ;) ), but MANY people get off on animated porn in Japan. I don't really understand...

[cybercyst]

joelpeet, you have hit the nail on the head, about 'Spirited' having "Nothing to do with a girl trying to save her parent transformed into pigs. Of course, it was a point in the anime, but the real plot (if we can call it like that) is more the journey of the girl from teenage mind to adulthood : question about responsiblity, courage, sensitivity to other, etc...."

...That's what I like about anime in general, there are many adult themes and morals that are mature and keep the adult audience in mind...while at the same time, there are funny and crazy shows out there too, making us laugh and saying 'what the hell...?' While here in the U.S., all we have are little kiddie cartoons that seem to be only for children...when we think of cartoons, we think of shows for kids (we have Disney to blame for that). Anime I believe is the most popular form of cinema and television entertainment in Japan (please correct me if I'm wrong); animation is not on the backburner like it is here in the U.S. It's wildly popular over there, as you can see from the millions of anime titles. *sigh* makes me want to move to Japan.:D

[grega]

a story supposed to have Start and End. (period)

Says who?

A simplistic view of storytelling if ever I heard one.

[cybercyst]

Personally, I like stories that don't have endings...that leaves the viewer to guess the ending for himself, so everyone can use his/her imagination. Anime leaves a lot of wounds open story-wise, leaving the viewer left to either close them up or let them bleed and take on a life of their own.

[Harvey Human]

Intellectual stories such as a little girl who goes to save her parents who were turned into pigs?I'm not talking about "intellectual stories." I'm talking about stories and characters which don't insult one's intelligence. You know: like the wacky buddy picture where they go on a journey and must confront an evil villian but they learn a valuable lessen in the end and have a group hug.

In Japanese animated features, there are often no one-dimensional evil villians, the stories are usually a bit more complex, and the characters' emotional response is less predictable.

[Animated Ape]

Spirited Away won the Academy Award, so they must be doing SOMETHING right.

Yeah, but so did Titanic. lol

A very enlightening article. It's sad that it seems the more developed a nation is, the less it's artists make. Although Europe has seemed to have figured it out.

The Ape

[Harvey Human]

Yeah, but so did Titanic. lolgood point

[pwassink]

Joelpeet, i agree very much with what you wrote in this thread. and i must say i admire the patience and tact that you use to explain your point to someone like Shany, who is not very subtle.


Shany your remarks irritate me, how can you say that something is stupid just because you don't understand it?

Some people they see a film like akira, and love the animation but don't understand it, get curious and make an effort to at least try an understand what this 'super good animation' is all about.
but instead you go... i don't understand it therefore the guy who made it must be stupid.
a rather arrogant stance.

off course everyone has a right to dislike a film, but saying that, because you disliked it, therefore the film was not ment to be...
well that's what i call stupid...

[pascal]

shany .... what do you ,ean:: no storyline§§
akira has no storyline ?, nor does ghost in the shell??

wow..; i ve never heard anything like thi sbefore
i grew up ina country where we watched as much anime as american cartoons, and, because our language was neither french nor english, we nebver thought about where they came from, we ddin*t even call them anime

I fondly remenber sherlock hound, and things like goldorak, not knowingthat they were actually anile
then, i discovered dragon ball( not dragon ball z, but the original one, when son goku is still a kid), doctor slump, and all those really fun cartoons
I loved them, and they are the ones that inspired me to strt drawing and, much much later, to try myself at animation

since i hqve been living in the states, and actually woking in the industry i have noticed that feeling of ,, the american way is the real way , all the others are not ...
isnùt that a bit like eisner almost saying that disney is teh only true animation type??

I love a lot of different animations myself, and don*t have a specific anime thing going on, but , in the top five animations on my list you have the iron giant competing with my neighboor totoro, la prophetie des grenouilles; the jungle book and le roi et l*oiseau de paul grimault.

all of them from varied sources, but all of them have what is very important to me..; characters that are enticing and good storylines

P.

[pwassink]

Hey Pascal, you guys were lucky, you used to get a lot of great animation series on tv in italy. An italien friend (she is now stopmotion animator) told me this.

sherlock hound, didn't Miyazaki direct a couple of episodes?

and did you also see Conan boy of the future? i borrowed the dvd from this girl so it was the italian dub!
i liked it so much! i bought a conan dvd-set myself, but i actually liked the italien version better
(Conan!...Lana!...Conan aiuto!)
i also made a little webpage because i was struck by the similarities with his later works http://www.geocities.com/animatiefan/

[pascal]

hey pwassink ..*yeah, we were lucky to have a bunch of great fun animation when we were kids down here5 i*m still here for a week long break w...wow, what a relief.

i do remenber conan, and yes , myazaki directed some of sherlock hound*s episodes.
lol
ah great stuff

i cant view your site from where i am, but will as soon as i get back to the states 5on the plane tomorrow urkkkkkkkkkk°
oh well


anyway
another thing i wanted to ad while thinking about this thread last night..
it i sfunny and actually very interesting to see that the animation community is such a wide and diverse bunch of people.
this is truly a good sign for it does provide for pretty intense reactions and conversations , and, therefore, leads to creativity.
no matter what any which one of us thinks, this is a great boost fro everybody

P.

[BobW]

Sad to read that article. I think they've got a better system at studio Ghibli though. I read something about the animators there getting a month salary instead of being paid by their output or the amount of cells they produced. Don't know if its much compared to Us salaries but at least Miyazaki and the rest out there show compassion for the sake of the animators and the quality of the animation. They also sleep at the studio I once read, something I don't think you'll ever see in an american studio.

About the love/hate anime debate. I think there's a lot of prejudice against anime. Sure a lot of garbage is being produced and there are a lot of stereotypes such as lots of violence, barely dressed women etc. But anime is not one type of movie such as Disney for example. Anime is simply the japanese word for animation in contrast to manga which is the japanese word for comics. Anime is not one distinct style of animation although there certainly is a japanese esthetic in all these movies. I personally think Miyazaki's work looks a lot more European than other anime. About the stories, there just is no american equivalent to something like Grave of the Fireflies. It's a story with a lot of depth very humane and dealing with very serious subject matter. If you watch Grave of the fireflies and you still think their stories make no sense you just don't like good animation! Anime doesn't always have to be futuristic akira or ghost in the shell like stories although I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I can hightly recommend: all the films by studio ghibli. They're IMHO some of the best animated feature films ever made.

[BobW]

Disney is not one type of animated movie either I just realised after finishing my earlier post. It's just as much a prejudice as saying anime is always sexist, sci-fi stuff. Maybe I was referring to the musical style of movie making and the comedy sidekick syndrome. Anyway I love both disney and anime and think that it makes animated movie watching more fun by not looking at disney,anime, bluth etc. but just by judging it by its qualities.

[Graphiteman]

Good points, BobW!

[joelpeet]

:) Hey Pascal,

it'seems that we have the same animation background : Goldorak was one of the first, if not THE first, anime I've ever seen in my childhood here in Brussels, through the French Public Television. I remember, a few years ago they show the series once again. It had is charm, but clearly it's a poor quality animation - sometimes Riguel (the little man) had six fingers on his hand, another time four fingers - that made me laugh a lot.

I also remember Sherlock hound... really like it.

Their was a lot of anime on television in the 80's : Cats'eyes, Cobra, Ken, Dragon Ball (this one is a must), Doctor Slump (from the same who create Dragon Ball), Saint-Seya (Les Chevaliers du Zodiaque in french - Knight of the Zodiac), Sailor Moon (in the ebginning of the 90's) and a lot of others from whom I only remember the french title.

Yet, through all of these anime (even cheaply made) I had the opportunity - as others - to know there was another Animation Culture than the US-European animation one. True, Japanimation was a blow at what i think was the only way of doing animation (US/Europe). When they arrived on the market it was a good thing for everyone, they push animation forward bringing adulthood in animation, showing that even serious thing could be said through animation, and not only Singing Cats (even if i like the Aristocats, one of my favorites) and Singing monkeys (this one is also one of my favorite).

Of course, as usual, with the better came also the worse... like Pokemon :D

[pascal]

hey joel peet
do you remenber
les mysterieuses cites d'or?
barbapapa?
chapi chapo?
telechat?
la noiraude?
la linea?
gigi?
candy?
capitaine flam?

tintin?

these were a bunch of loved cartoons , neither french american nor japaneese..
just fun cartoons


i agree
goldorak was very very poorly done
yet
i remenber it as beeing that high action cartoon... and when i saw it again a few years ago, i realised that it basically was a bunch of images shot very much like the old fantastic four stuff in the early 60's

that's funny
the original dragon ball serie is one of my favorite
lol

P.

[Konan]

That, again is your opinion. I strongly diagree with it, but that is mine. I personally find Japanimation to be very badly animated (completely lacking in the life department).
I'm not a professional animator, I'm a teen aspiring to be a screenwriet, but here's my take on things.
I disagree to an extent. I sometimes find some of the animation in the Bluth/Disney style stilted--therefore lacking in realism. But yes, most anime is badly animated. Of course, low frame rate does not mean bad animation--lack of effort, maybe, or lack of time and money. Remember that the Japanese animation industry is more than twice as big as the American. Hayao Miyazaki himself said that if he were ruler of Japan, he would cut the amount of anime being created in half. Anyway, the Ghibli films (even the earlier ones such as Naushika and Rapyuta have some incredible character animation. One could say that they never rise to the heights of Bambi or The Secret of Nimh, but they do come close much of the time, and never is their animation on the low level of most other anime, Saturday Morning animation, or Disney's 70s output. Yes, there may be a static shot here and there--but you can't seriously think that they can create an Anastasia with a budget of $20-30 million. Anyway, I've seen static crowd scenes in Bluth's work--definitely a detraction to the quality of Bluth's animation. Animators such as Glen Keane and John Lasseter have themselves praised the stunning attention to detail and attention to realism in how the characters move, act, and react in Miyazaki's films. His characters move smoothly, gracefully and with ease on the 1s and 2s, sometimes on the 3s--but that is again rare. Ghibli's maybe not as good as Disney, but very, very close. I agree that most anime sucks, though, in the character animation department, but their special-effects animation in 2D is unrivalled, as well as their background artwork.

[kdiddy13]

a story supposed to have Start and End. (period)Says who?

A simplistic view of storytelling if ever I heard one.

I agree. I think some of the films that stuck with me the most don't have endings. I didn't like The Matrix (the first one) the first time I saw it. The second time, I started to appreciate it more. And now it's probably my most watched DVD. It left me thinking about it and the questions it left you with. The sequels, that had their "start and end" didn't resonate with me, because the questions had been answered. Tha Animatrix, with a few exceptions, was far more compelling because it asked interesting questions and then didn't feel the need to spell out the answers. Akira, Spirited Away, and Porko Rosso (which by the way is one of the best movies, let alone animations, I have seen in a very long time) same thing. After several viewings I've gotten to appreciate them more and more.

I think a big problem is the differences in cultural story telling. Final Fantasy failed to resonate with Amercian audiences (among other reasons). Think of one of its most important elements to the story, politicians being concerned with being dishonored! Americans assume that if they're in politics they have no honor! And please, no political debates, that's a bipartisain observation.

I've found that because of the cultural differences, and the uncomfortableness involved, it takes me a day or two for the story to really sink in, or even better, a day off and watch it again. I find that I typically reverse my first impression and find that I really enjoy the different story styles that I've never seen before.

My 2 cents.

Back to the article. That really sucks. Such a large group of talented artists being taken advantage of really hurts, no matter where they are. It hurts us all as that's what becomes expected of the industry. We should be pulling for equal wages world wide.

[skinnylizard]

i dont get the dissing on Anime. seriously, its not like its made for the rest of the world market , so if you dont get it - you arent meant to. i bet there are probably 30 cultural and subtle refrences we miss out on in the dubbing (or recutting alone).
personally i cant stand the stuff either but its only coz of the lame attempts to localize the content. the actual animation is gorgeous and absolutely stunning at times.
also the dubbing and localisation is done in the regional markets so you probably only have your compatriots to blame for the gorefest they put out.

also. if anyone knows a Anime talent working for $450 and speaks english ill be happy to hire him for the same amount + room and board.

[Konan]

The actual animation is gorgeous and absolutely stunning at times.


You mean the higher-budget stuff, like Studio Ghibli's films, right?

[Wade K]

the actual animation is gorgeous and absolutely stunning at times.

Jesus. What anime films have you seen? I have yet to see ANYTHING in anime that is in fact well animated. This is speaking from the heart, as an ANIMATOR, with experience... I may not get the stories, etc., but that is secondary. This comment in particular gets me riled up.

Also, what is up with this post being resurrected after MONTHS?

[Jabberwocky]

I think the "problem" (if you want to call it a problem which is up to the individual reader) with the average Japanimation style is that, whether for budgetary or artistic reasons, the animators concentrate way too much on neatly drawn single frames, the set-up of scenes and on situations which don't change visibly during a scene. This is what gives it all such a static feel to my mind. (If you're really unlucky, the clean-up quality sucks as well.)
Why do you think they're able to have such a huge output? In my opinion, it's because in many Asian productions the animators don't have to worry so much about animating at twelve, twenty-four or even thirty fps, properly applying animation principles of conveying the feel of forces at work, or time-consuming processes like breaking down dialogue for lip-synch and reading foot-long exposure sheets to animate it right. They can have whole dialog scenes going on for minutes using variations of the same five-frame loop shot on 3s.
I read the odd manga and I've seen some made into anime shows. I may like the manga but I'm yet to find an anime conversion of one I like. To me, they're lacking the dynamics which, reading the manga, I create in my mind, and are often terribly long-winded and just tiring to sit through.

[Spoooze!]

What anime films have you seen? I have yet to see ANYTHING in anime that is in fact well animated.

What doesn't appeal to you about Miyazaki's (Spirited Away, Princess Mononoke) animation Wade? From a proffesional animators viewpoint what is bad about it?
Spoooze!

[Wontobe]

What doesn't appeal to you about Miyazaki's (Spirited Away, Princess Mononoke) animation Wade? From a proffesional animators viewpoint what is bad about it?
Spoooze!
Any one who has seen Princess Mononoke would have to admit to the high standards of animation work that this movie represents. How could work like this be done any better?

[manoj]

hi

i have been greatly inspired by anime mainly because in india a country with 7000 year civilisation we are not able to produce good animated series since we tend to get carried away by disney style which is very expensive,after seeing anime i realised that kids want to story/charecter/they are not much concerned about no. of frames as long at there is a good story with good charecters .

i have taken it as my mission to produce original indian content and to help idependent pople around the world to produce there stuff 2d/3d ...so that they don't get hampered with budget if there is a good idea one should explore.

outsourcing is happening and has been happening for ages..so why cry :( just move up the vaule chain..thats where the power of original idea is :)

cheers :p

[ScatteredLogical]

I agree that telling a story well is often more valuable than the artwork itself, but it's interesting to see you drop Disney in favor of another system of filmmaking equally rooted in commercialism and character properties.

The day a kid can tell me what -happened- on their trading card show, or better yet, that they cared, will be a triumph in terms of that style of animation. Granted that's a small fraction of an enormous universe of work, but the flipside is a collection of movies who are said to have 'mature content and depth.' But that's lost on many outside the intended audience. You think Johnny 12-year-old is going to walk away with a clear idea of the plot of Armitage III or understand the sociopolitical implications of Ghost in the Shell?

Anime has its positives, but I think it's reaching to say that most kids gravitate toward Japanese animation for anything other than its trendiness or its relevance to their Gameboy games. Certainly if we're speaking of the drawings it all takes a back seat.

[zombi]

in the beginning, sorry for my poor english. i'm still learing..
i heard the idea of japanese animation salary system such as how much per a frame was generated by Osamu Tezuka who made the first animated TV series, "Astro Boy" in Japan. Since then, the pay system has not been changed much for freelance animators. Nobody expected recent big hit of Japanese animation in overseas. Now people concern about dragging old system around and it's time to change systems according to present situation. However, by the way, studios pay employees a lot more than 50,000yen per a month. Please don't ever think every animators get such a small salary. Only freelance animators are got paid per a frame or cut. Some good animator earn 10,000-30,000yen per a cut, some animators earn 200yen per a frame still.

[Eva]

I think that there is some good animation in the anime genre...and also bad.

However, I also think that some anime studios should be congratulated on their ingenuity when making some of their products. Held cels, dialoge off-screen, etc. may be brought about by budgetarty constraints...but within those constraints the animators have come up with their own "tricks of the trade" to meet budgets and produce an animated piece.

Their use of stylistic tricks such as focus and lens flare also appeal to me personally.

I do not know about the Saturday morning trading card animes, but such works as Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust , Record of Lodoss War , and even some series such as Cowboy Bebop are examples of solid animation.


Eva

[ScatteredLogical]

I don't like being able to see every drawing in the animation. Bebop's an example; it's likely just me, but whenever the tallest guy does a turnaround it takes it out of realism because it doesn't process as "movement that's drawn" vs. "drawings that move." I'm not saying "Ew, gross, it's a terrible movie," just that maybe I was just born with weird eyes that don't see the continuity when it can't quite reach a certain speed or fullness.

[Konan]

'Tis true that the character animation in Mononoke Hime is first-rate, on the level of The Wings of Honneamise and Akira and of near-Disney quality----but the "lack of movement" that occurs about four or five times in the whole film--when a character sits (or stands) still, staring into space, in deep thought, to arouse out of such a state a few seconds later--will merit for the harshest of critics the term "limited animation." Which it isn't.
I could accuse Don Bluth of the same thing when it comes to the scene where Anya (Anastasia) discovers that Dmitri is a con man, in Anastasia--as the picture fades, we see a woman on a bench, not moving. Full of life, isn't it?

[Wade K]

Look at the animation in any anime film and tell me that it is full of life. That the character looks alive in the way it moves. They never do... It is a simple fact (to me). I guess some of us will have to agree to disagree on this.

Yes, a couple films did in fact add a few more drawings, and smoothed the action out a bit, but they still completely lack personality, emotion, and life for me, and are unintersting to look at.

Cheers

[ScatteredLogical]

It's good to make that distinction, for ANY animation style. Fullness doesn't necessarily equal quality. It's -what kind of- drawings, not how many.

[DSB]

I could accuse Don Bluth of the same thing when it comes to the scene where Anya (Anastasia) discovers that Dmitri is a con man, in Anastasia--as the picture fades, we see a woman on a bench, not moving. Full of life, isn't it?

Don Bluth can be accused of many things, but limited animation is not one of them... :D

[Jabberwocky]

Besides, not even Myazaki is above animating on 3s, using loops, simplifying lip synch and disregarding certain rules of weight in motion. (I'll immediately admit, however, that he employs some of the best background artists in the business. In fact, he's an extremely skilled layout artist himself. Even Disney artists were strongly inspired by his BG style when they did Tarzan.)
You get characters not moving in scenes in all kinds of animated movies, Asian and American, even the very best. Animation doesn't mean moving everything as much as possible. When Bluth, for example, decides not to move characters like the lady on the bench Konan described it's because the scene's focus isn't on them. When Anya discovers Dmitri is a fraud, who will the audience be interested in? Them, or an uninvolved character sitting nearby?
I think what takes a lot of life out of many anime shows and movies, however, is that there are often characters in full focus and all they ever do is open and close their mouths while the dialog plays, and maybe shift from one pose to another.

[Konan]

Don Bluth can be accused of many things, but limited animation is not one of them... :D
Yeah, I know. I think I'll go back to really liking live-action films again. Bye.

[Konan]

Look at the animation in any anime film and tell me that it is full of life. That the character looks alive in the way it moves. They never do... It is a simple fact (to me). I guess some of us will have to agree to disagree on this.

Yes, a couple films did in fact add a few more drawings, and smoothed the action out a bit, but they still completely lack personality, emotion, and life for me, and are unintersting to look at.

Cheers

Then you'd rather watch a patronizing, simpleminded, sappy American cartoon. That's a fact----almost all American animation is made for 5 year-old kids in order to sell merchandise. 99%, I'd say. Don't tell me that Pocahontas, Titan A.E., Prince of Egypt, or Road to El Dorado appeal to adults, because they are even more childish than My Neighbor Totoro! American animated films will always be aimed at young children, period! No hope for American animation! The protagonists are one-dimensional, without any flaws, always predictable and perfect to the point of divine. The anatagonists never have any redeeming qualities, are melodramatic and cloying. The stories are so simple, as are the biased, one-sided moral messages, and never respect the intelligence of the audience. I guess it's your loss that you absolutely hate anime, as it is my loss that I absolutely hate American animation.
Here's some opinions I've read on Japanimation vs. Americanimation:
http://www.noderunner.net/~llin/old/mmltraffic/5July02.html#4
http://www.noderunner.net/~llin/old/mmltraffic/3April01.html#4

[Konan]

Oh, wait -- did you know that Glen Keane, in The Art of Spirited Away, praised the character movement in Spirited Away for its attention to detail and for its realism? Who cares.

[RRRivero]

I once read an article in which a japanese complained about the american version of Godzilla saying: "They're missing the point, Godzilla is not about special effects, we KNOW it's a guy in a monster suit, and accept that"
We must always remember that anime comes from Japan=different culture!
That's why it is different in the first place, and as it is with everything different, some won't be able to digest it, and some will find it revolutionary. In fact, what we get here is a westernized version to some extent. Only as the west influenced them, they have changed enough so that their product would get to us... It's like european films that have to be edited so that their tempo would get to american standards (An almost unrelated thought... Did you know that the Beatles' records, when released in the states were stripped of all the "intellectual" songs? ) Same thing as with chinese food... what we have is a version for us. :rolleyes:
I must admit I was so awestruck with the visuals of films like Vampire Hunter D, Totoro, and Ghost in the Shell that I could forgive the gaps/leaps/omissions in the story (Or even the lack of a story as in Totoro)
But that would apply too to some Disney movies that seem to have their scripts made from some sort of template. But they're written by a mind similar to ours, so we notice less.
So sometimes the caracters don't move, Hey, if they were latinos, that would be a real problem, but have you seen two japanese talking?
I like the way good anime solves the problem of lack of budget by smart layout, camera placement, sound and editing. I don't like Dragon Ball z, but then again I'm not young enough. I remember when I was like 10 I went nuts for an anime called Voltus V :D :D

[DSB]

Every so often, someone shows up here and attempts to stir up an "anime is better because..." conflict. They usually die out pretty quickly because no one's really trying to advocate for their point of view - they're too busy slamming the other side. As a result, it's a lot of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

I've participated in these threads in the past, but now try to avoid them. They're a waste of time, and end up changing no one's mind. Especially when the approach taken is a militant, aggressive one, such as the one on display here.

It's O.K. that you like something that other people don't - that's life. But if your enjoyment is based on ramming your viewpoint down other people's throats or disparaging other people for their preferences, then there's a problem.

[joelpeet]

DSB I agree with you, it's the same as the age old debat between the people who likes Apple and those who likes Microsoft - Totally useless.
Everything has his place and his advantage, his good points and his bad one. One of the greatest problems in any debat is when someone is Singleminded about something - with that kind of people we never get far.

As for me, I humbly admit I have a preference for Anime and Manga. Yet, it will be stupid and hypocritical to reject the Occidental animation like Disney's or Don Bluth's animation, and others... Hypocritical because when I was a child I was totally struk by "Occidental Animation" and enjoy it absolutelly and had a great smile when getting out of the theater. Stupid, because it's also our cultural background in any case.

I love Japan, his culture, his mood, his people, his language, his art - yes I'm a Japanese freak, yet I'M NOT, AND WILL NEVER BE, A JAPANESE. I'm a Belgian nurtured with Disney, Don Bluth,Tex Avery, Hanna barbera, and so on. One of the thing I learn from Japanese people is that you need always to RESPECT your own culture and background because it's what made you in the first place and what gives you your soul and mind with whom you work on something.

IMHO, People have nothing to gain being single minded... and you loose a lot rejecting what made and make you. A good artist (animator,illustrator,script,...) is first of all someone who's open to any winds on knowledge...

But that's my opinion... of course :D :D

[DSB]

Thanks Joel. Personally, I lean toward western animation, but I also enjoy anime from time to time. Good anime, that is.

And who decides what's good anime? I do - I'm the one watching it, after all. I decide what's worth my time from my perspective, and my opinion of what's good may not be the same as someone else's. So what? That's what makes the world go 'round, and why movie critics have jobs. :D

[ScatteredLogical]

Incidentally, as one of about four people who have seen The Road to El Dorado, and the only one I know to -enjoy- it, I can say with absolute truth that the entire reason the plot exists in the form it does is -because- of the flaws that Tulio possesses. If he weren't that selfish, and self-absorbed, half of the necessary problems never would've come to pass. He's a device. No change = no drama = no problem = nothing to see = no one to see it. Really strange argument to pick a movie with incredibly simplified character development to build a case for movies having "one dimensionsional" protagonists.

[Konan]

Not to mention if you open your eyes a bit more you'll find plenty of "mature" American animation, but it might not be the mystical fantasy sci-fi giant robot ninja animation you like. That's why anime exists, for Japan and white teenage/young adult males, like you.
I don't like "mystical fantasy sci-fi giant robot ninja animation." I like animation with a live-action sensibility! In facvt, to be truly honest I despise most anime, at least 90%. I love Ghibli's films, though.

[DSB]

Incidentally, as one of about four people who have seen The Road to El Dorado, and the only one I know to -enjoy- it...

Now we are two :) I liked El Dorado, because I went into it expecting a fun little film, which is exactly what it is.

We put far too many expectations on animated films these days. When Dreamworks' stock is downgraded because Madagascar made "only" 70 mil it's opening weekend, we're expecting too much.

[Jabberwocky]

I don't like "mystical fantasy sci-fi giant robot ninja animation." I like animation with a live-action sensibility! In facvt, to be truly honest I despise most anime, at least 90%. I love Ghibli's films, though.

There's always two ways of looking at things and if you see the positive aspects of one thing only to throw the negative aspects of another into sharper relief, your loss indeed. Copying reality isn't what animation is all about, it's believability, and what kind of acting and animation people believe conveys the motivations and emotions of a character best for them is a matter of personal taste. Like it or not, at least live with it.
I like some American animated movies and I dislike others just as I like and dislike certain kinds of japanimation. To say that one is nothing but childish tripe which never respects the audience's intelligence is about as gross a generalization as saying the other is only about pubescent school girls riding giant robots.

[Haredevil_Hare]

I agree, the Japanese do produce a lot of garbage animation, but occasionally you can find something decent that is worth watching. The article had me looking at the similarities between the situation here in the US and there in Japan. Studios here in the States went from producing all of their animations in house to sending some work out to other studios to sending most of the work to overseas studios to keep production costs down. The Japanese, who probably produce and watch more animation than any other nation in this world, seem to be following the trend. How long will it be before they are completely reliant upon South Korea, Philippines, India, China, etc. for nearly all of their animation production needs? Won’t this increase the cost of productions in those countries? As the cost of production in those countries increase, what effects does it have on the state of the industry here? Will it increase the job opportunities in North America? Slow down the production of animation? Or does it mean that another country will set up an industry to help meet everyone’s needs?

Yeah, it seems like corporate crap-art is a cultural inevitability no matter where you are. :mad:

[tehfuzzbomb]

konan, i too am a huge fan of hayao miyazaki so we're on the same page there, but:

. . .it is my loss that I absolutely hate American animation.
In facvt, to be truly honest I despise most anime, at least 90%.

did you come to these message boards to slam animation?
cause this is a bad place to do that.

[Konan]

konan, i too am a huge fan of hayao miyazaki so we're on the same page there, but:

>Quote:
. . .it is my loss that I absolutely hate American animation.<
>Quote:
In facvt, to be truly honest I despise most anime, at least 90%.<

did you come to these message boards to slam animation?
cause this is a bad place to do that.

I don't "absolutely hate" American animation. Some of it is downright superb (like the original Fantasia). But, like any form of art, there's the bad stuff and the good stuff and the stuff inbetween. It's up to the perspective of the beholder to decide for himself what is bad, what is good, and what is mediocre. I mean, nothing is absolute. One must realize that, and be able to calmly point out the flaws and the merits of a work and find its heart, its humanity. So much goes into animation, I realize---I am not an animator, strictly a writer and musician, but I love animation. I shouldn't have blasted Americanimation like that---and same with Japanimation. Each has its great artists, with their own styles, their own techniques, their own observations of the human condition, of the existence of the human soul, who carefully draft emotions and bring their characters, settings, and situations to life in their own way. But there is also the artist who can only do so much, and the artist who has a total inability to accomplish anything of real significance or beauty. I did not come to these forums to bash animation----rather, I came to converse, to learn from others, and to teach others what I know and what I feel. I will admit, I'm prone to mood swings occasionally---I'm just fifteen years old, a teenager in high school, going through a difficult period in my life.
Thanks for listening.
--Konan--

[Wontobe]

American animated films will always be aimed at young children, period! No hope for American animation!
Pixar. As for the other studios that make feature films, I would have to say your are right.

[Konan]

Pixar. As for the other studios that make feature films, I would have to say your are right.

Pixar is in a class by itself. Read the post above, where I took back what I said before.

[ScatteredLogical]

The independent animation circuit is something in and of itself. Just because people don't see the non-kiddie material doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it only means it lacks equal exposure.

[Spoooze!]

Here's my personal opinion on Japanese animation:

A lot of it is horrible I will admit, just like a lot of American animation. I like some Japanese animations and I don't like others. It's the same with American animation. I hate Pokemon but I love Spirited Away.
I hate Rugrats but love The Incredibles.

Just my opinions.

James