reels - using movie dialogue

[meleponine]

I was thinking of doing a few more examples of lip synch with character acting for my demo reel. I'm just wondering what you think of people using sound clips from copyrighted movies to animate to. One example of what I mean is 10secondclub.com.

In college my professors were very adamant about us only using stuff we had the rights to. But, if I'm only using it on my demo reel to get a job and not to make a profit.... does that really matter???

I guess I'm just wondering, legally, if this is okay and how potential employers/grad schools will see it. And also how I can get some good dialogue to animate to without having to worry about recording, writing it, finding an actor, etc .

Thanks guys!

[Rozzco]

get a ffreindly chappywith a micro phone and get him 2 record is voice with ure script and give u it :) i would but i hate my voice :(

[Animated Ape]

It's fine to use Meleponine. You are not using it directly to make a profit, unlike say if you used a piece of dialouge in a TV show or Movie. Then you would need to get the rights to use it. Think Vanilla Ice. Studios in fact do this all the time. PIXAR used lines from "Turner and Hooch," and "When Harry met Sally" to do test animation for Woody. You won't be looked down at for using it. Most likely they won't even thing about it.

Aloha,
the Ape

[DSB]

Ape's right, it'll be fine.

I'm an advocate of using audio from old radio shows, as opposed to movie clips. We already have the image in our head from the movie, so whatever you do will be compared to (and probably more than a little influenced by) the movie. Radio clips don't have this liability; you get to start from scratch.

If this piques your interest, there are literally hundreds of old radio shows here (http://www.radiolovers.com/). Pick one that you'll enjoy creating interesting visuals for, and go to town. I guarantee you you'll have a unique clip on your reel when you're done.

[L_Finston]

I'm just wondering what you think of people using sound clips from copyrighted movies to animate to.It is illegal unless you have gotten permission from the copyright holder, or an organization that manages artists' rights, such as ASCAP, if the copyright holder has entered into an agreement with such an organization. If you don't have permission, you will be liable for damages, if the copyright holder or the organization decides to sue you.

In college my professors were very adamant about us only using stuff we had the rights to.They were right.

But, if I'm only using it on my demo reel to get a job and not to make a profit.... does that really matter???Yes, it does. How would you feel if someone used your pictures this way?

I guess I'm just wondering, legally, if this is okayNo, it is illegal. It's not very nice, either.

and how potential employers/grad schools will see it.They're not the ones who would be liable for damages, you are, and it might be a lot of money.

And also how I can get some good dialogue to animate to without having to worry about recording, writing it, finding an actor, etc.You can use public domain material, get permission to use copyrighted material, or do it yourself.

Sorry, but these are the hard facts of life.

Laurence

[skinnylizard]

while Lauren is right i think you are on Ok ground. dont worry too much. its not a commercial angle and you are not making money directly off other peoples content.
it sucks but unless you are a bigcompany with a cashflow go ahead.

[Haredevil_Hare]

PIXAR used lines from "Turner and Hooch," and "When Harry met Sally" to do test animation for Woody.

Wasn't Billy Crystal the male lead in When Harry Met Sally? You may be thinking of Sleepless in Seattle.

Anyway, I read somewhere that if you use 30 seconds or less of any film or whatever then you don't owe anybody anything for using it. Therefore, a 10 second clip used for a school assignment shouldn't be a problem.

[L_Finston]

Anyway, I read somewhere that if you use 30 seconds or less of any film or whatever then you don't owe anybody anything for using it.Do you have a reference for this? It doesn't fit in with what I've read about copyright law, and I did read up on it some time ago.

To the best of my knowledge, using copyrighted material without permission is _illegal_. Not "sort of illegal", or "illegal, but it's okay to use it anyway". A copyright holder may allow certain kinds of use in a license. However, "All rights reserved" means just that: If you want to use it, you must ask for permission. To get permission, you may have to pay. That's one way artists, musicians, etc., earn a living. Maybe the copyright holder won't find out or won't bother to sue you. Nonetheless, if you use his/her materials you are violating his/her rights.

If I had an animation studio and somebody sent me a showreel containing copyrighted material that was used without permission, it wouldn't make a very good impression on me.

Laurence

[DSB]

Wasn't Billy Crystal the male lead in When Harry Met Sally? You may be thinking of Sleepless in Seattle.
Nope; Ape's correct. They used Crystal's monologue about the wagon wheel coffee table from When Harry Met Sally. The animation is on the Toy Story Ultimate Toy Box bonus DVD, but without the sound.

I've seen the clip with the WHMS audio, and it's hysterical. It's a shame they couldn't get permission to include the audio with the animation for the DVD release. Which is another great example of what's being discussed in this thread; it was O.K. to use the clip for internal (non-commercial) purposes, but when they wanted to release it for general consumption (read: revenue purposes), they had to secure a clearance - and were apparently unable to do so.

If you think it's even possible that you'll show a piece commercially, get the rights to the audio. And get them up front, when you can negotiate a price and terms. If the copyright holder finds out after the fact, you're at their mercy. They can charge whatever they like, and dictate the terms (length of use, credits, etc).

For personal use (classes, training, etc), you're covered under "fair use". Places like the 10-second club (http://10secondclub.net/) use copyrighted audio all the time and have never been sued or made to pay. The key is intent and length.

[richard oconnor]

It is legal to use copyrighted material for this purpose.

If you submit to festivals, the festival will require clearance.

What you are doing constitutes academic fair use. To be buttoned up you should acknowledge the copyright holder and add "for demonstration only".

DSB is right. We have images from movies already, and chances are your work would have to compete with some pretty good actors.

-roc

[meleponine]

Thanks for all the advice everyone. This is such a difficult topic. My understanding is that, yes illegal use of copyrighted materials is always illegal, but that it is okay for educational or personal use. I've seen a lot of CalArts student films and they OFTEN use film soundtracks in their shorts. Our profs told us we could use that kind of stuff educationally but if we ever wanted to submit it to festivals we would run into problems.

Anyway.... I was considering doing something for the 10 second club, but wasn't sure if I should if I can't use it in my professional reel. Also, saw a test with a clip from Ella Enchanted at acmeanimation.org, and it got me wondering.

Although all of your advice has led me to conclude that it woudl be okay for this purpose, I may just use some public domain radio show clips.... if I can find some that have enough emotional content without being cheesey. Just to be safe.

Thanks a million.

[Thomas Rydberg]

I had looked into this issue myself regarding a 40 second music clip. I did find out that I could purchase a limited license for like $300 from the music publisher to use the clip specifically for film festivals in the U.S. Also with music, it's necessary to get a license from the songwriter/composer too.

- Tom

[DSB]

Our profs told us we could use that kind of stuff educationally but if we ever wanted to submit it to festivals we would run into problems.

...and they were correct. :D

Anyway.... I was considering doing something for the 10 second club, but wasn't sure if I should if I can't use it in my professional reel.

Why not? If it's your work, you can use it. Your reel doesn't constitute a source of revenue in this context, so it's cool.

Also, saw a test with a clip from Ella Enchanted at acmeanimation.org, and it got me wondering.

Just saw this movie; much better than I expected it to be. Fun, light, fast-paced. And Anne Hathaway's a babe...

[QUOTE=meleponine] Although all of your advice has led me to conclude that it woudl be okay for this purpose, I may just use some public domain radio show clips.... if I can find some that have enough emotional content without being cheesey. Just to be safe.

No need to worry, but I promise you; using radio show audio will get your viewer's attention - at least more of their attention than using a Neo line from "The Matrix" that every animator and their brother has used... :cool: It's that whole "theater of the mind" thing that radio relies on. They have to do it all with their voices.

[L_Finston]

Perhaps the people arguing that it's okay are correct, I'm not a lawyer. However, I strongly recommend looking for official confirmation before publishing anything. If it's in the internet, anyone can see it, including the copyright holders. I doubt that "fair use" covers this use, but I might be wrong about this, too. Schools often violate copyright, e.g., by photocopying entire books. Some institutions and businesses pay a flat fee to artists' rights organizations in order to be able to use material managed by those organizations. Not everyone does, and I'm sure that there's a lot of copyright violation going on.

According to my understanding, copyright law is civil law rather than criminal law, so it's up to the copyright holder to take legal action, if his/her rights are violated. The police will not show up at the violator's house in the middle of the night. So it's quite likely that the copyright holder won't take action, because of the trouble and expense involved. However, this doesn't make it right, in my opinion.

Why not? If it's your work, you can use it. Your reel doesn't constitute a source of revenue in this context, so it's cool.I'm not so sure about this. If I enter an animation to a festival, and there's a cash prize, then I'm trying to make money with it. If I use it to try to get a job, I'm also trying to use it to make money.

I think all of us have an interest in having _our own_ copyright respected. I don't think it's fair to violate other people's. Remember "Keep on Truckin'"? Do you think R. Crumb got royalties on all the copies? Well, he didn't.
In addition, if a person violates someone else's copyright, I don't think anyone will have much sympathy if a third person violates the first person's copyright.

If it is legal, okay, then I'm wrong. But I think it would be a good idea for anyone who wants to use other people's material to check carefully first, and get an official answer.

Laurence

[ScatteredLogical]

I'm not so sure about this. If I enter an animation to a festival, and there's a cash prize, then I'm trying to make money with it. If I use it to try to get a job, I'm also trying to use it to make money.

Not to split hairs but one of those is way more direct in terms of money making.

Your point deserves emphasis though. Laws should be researched and abided by if there's -any- doubt.

If there's a law against it though, there's quite a few million cases out there going unpunished =) Might be another reasons short films are so highly doted upon at some studios.