Char. Construction Madness!

[sajdera]

I've been checking out John K.'s blog and he's been talking about construction, and the Preston Blair samples really got my mind working. It made me wonder how well I'd constucted my own character that I made a model for, and so I attempted to draw a 9-point turn-around tonight that was a disaster.

Now, I wish I hadn't crumpled it up because it might have turned out useful to see what my problem is. I did save this, though: I then tried to dissect my rat's head. I've known all along that his "head-head" is a sphere, but it's occurs to me know that his "jaw-head" is this totally weird shape... or is it?
You can see the original portrait/profile at right (inked) and my retro-construction on the left:

http://www.geocities.com/wjsaj/construction.gif

One thing that did dawn on me tonight was a remark that Larry made when I first posted my model. He said to think of the eye as being a ball in a socket, and I said 'oh yeah... got it', but I really didn't get it. Something clicked in my head tonight and I tried drawing the eyeball beyond what you can see on the surface, and I feel I finally grasped that concept.

It's not that I'm completely stumped on this whole thing (yet!), but I'd be really stoked to get some serious, frank, tough-love-kinda feedback on my character model (or anything I do). :o

[L_Finston]

Now, I wish I hadn't crumpled it up because it might have turned out useful to see what my problem is.Never crumple.

It's not that I'm completely stumped on this whole thing (yet!), but I'd be really stoked to get some serious, frank, tough-love-kinda feedback on my character model (or anything I do). :oI suggest you look at a picture of a skull and consider the position of the angle of the jaw. It doesn't have to be a rat skull, a human skull will do just fine. It's further back. You could try drawing your rat with an open mouth. Where's the fulcrum? I think it should be further back than in your drawing.

Hint: Put your fingers under your ear and open and close your mouth (but maybe not on the bus).

Laurence

[L_Finston]

One thing that did dawn on me tonight was a remark that Larry made when I first posted my model. He said to think of the eye as being a ball in a socket,The eye is a ball in a socket. At least, it is certainly in a socket (the orbit), and it's very close to being ball-shaped, with nerves extending from the back side into the brain, blood vessels, etc. If you're drawing the socket as a partial sphere, recessed in the skull, and the opening as a circle, the opening should appear as an ellipse in all views, except in the one in which you're looking at the opening straight on, in which it will appear to be a circle, and in the ones where you're looking directly at its edge, in which it will appear to be a line. In humans, the eyes are directed generally forward, while in most other quadrupeds, they are directed more to the side. So, deciding where to put the eyes on your rat is one of the factors that determines how rat-like or human-like it looks. In short, in the side view, the opening for the eye should be an ellipse. You could determine what ellipse precisely by constructing your figure in 3D. However, for cartoon animation, this shouldn't be necessary. Roughly speaking, in the side view, a narrower ellipse will make the eyes appear to be directed more forward (more foreshortening), while a broader ellipse will make them appear to be directed more toward the side (less foreshortening). It's simply the application of perspective to anatomy.

Laurence

[Haredevil_Hare]

I've been checking out John K.'s blog and he's been talking about construction, and the Preston Blair samples really got my mind working. It made me wonder how well I'd constucted my own character that I made a model for, and so I attempted to draw a 9-point turn-around tonight that was a disaster..............

It's not that I'm completely stumped on this whole thing (yet!), but I'd be really stoked to get some serious, frank, tough-love-kinda feedback on my character model (or anything I do). :o

Yeah, I was going to suggest to you that you use more construction but I wasn't sure how you'd take it. Oh well, I guess it's better that you learned that from a seasoned pro like John K. rather than an upstart like me.

That rat of yours has a nice Don Bluth-type design, but you should start drawing him with the sphere shape for the head, pear shape for the body, and a strong line of action from now on. That'll be the difference between amateur and professional (with loads and loads of practice).

Incidently, on the last drawing on my blog (http://dmgermain.blogspot.com/2006/05/scientology-monkey.html), some anonymous person left a comment that my drawings are really bad and that I should get my monkey back from the school that taught me to draw. (Of course, as Ken knows, that would be impossible. My monkey has been embezzled and put in an offshore account by now. ;) )

[Jabberwocky]

I only do turnarounds very rarely but I always find it cloggs up my mind when I concentrate on certain body regions, like the head, too much and try to get them done before everything else. Perhaps if you created a full-body model composed entirely of simple shapes based on preliminary sketches first, turned that around and added detail later.

[WeeklyHero]

Incidently, on the last drawing on my blog (http://dmgermain.blogspot.com/2006/05/scientology-monkey.html), some anonymous person left a comment that my drawings are really bad and that I should get my monkey back from the school that taught me to draw. (Of course, as Ken knows, that would be impossible. My monkey has been embezzled and put in an offshore account by now. ;) )

I wish I had a monkey....:(

[Ken Davis]

I wish I had a monkey....:(


And I too, wish I could get some monkey back from that same school where I taught Haredevil how to draw. Except, I didn't really teach how.....I just sorta showed him a...........I knida.......


Brain hurt. Brain hurt now...

For sajdera:
My preference is to use really strong "interesting" shapes with some markedly clear definitions to them and then blend same a bit together.

Too much blended ( softened) forms make defining a design harder at first, at least I've found.

Here's a quick sketch based on your design to sorta show what I'm talking about (Let's see if this works!):
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y270/KenDavisCartoons/Mouse.jpg

Now, I use a more angular approach, and that's purely a personal preference, there's MANY other approaches you can take with this.
The character you designed conveys is kind of a "mousy" fellow so I tried to keep that.

[Graphiteman]

Thing is, Sadjera, it is construction, it is 3dness but it is 2d, it does not have to adhere to a rigid wireframe understanding. Even in turnarounds IMHO. The wonderful thing about drawing is you can fudge it to look appealing at almost any angle. I don't know why one would want an aerial view their mouse..but I don't know how to make that appealing....so I would avoid it. I've sort of attempted a down 3/4 tilt head towards the camera/viewer. You can tell I go for the basic geometric shapes. I appreciate the realistic human kind of eyes you've done but circels (like good old "Uncle Preston" ) are easier for me to turn.

Somewhere in Illusion Of Life book it says as much about drawin Mickey from on top. EVen good 3d studios understand this; showing their charcaters in appealing ways consciencious of the camera...not just letting the charcater do its thing disregarding the camera.

Now you've done it a bit with the ears. I know those ears are moreorless flat off the side of the head but on front you can flair it even more from the front.

So I fudge the hair and the ears. Unless he's sitting on a turntable in a scene (Head rotation) one needn't be too literal in drawn animation.
We see parts on the hair change all the time in cartoons and ears and cheeks and chins do things they wouldn't in reality all the sake for appeal.

Construction? yes. But with appeal and looseness
http://www3.telus.net/drard/4sadjera.jpg

[sajdera]

Too much blended ( softened) forms make defining a design harder at first, at least I've found.

Here's a quick sketch based on your design to sorta show what I'm talking about (Let's see if this works!)...

...Now, I use a more angular approach, and that's purely a personal preference, there's MANY other approaches you can take with this.
The character you designed conveys is kind of a "mousy" fellow so I tried to keep that.

That's a great drawing, Ken! :o One of the things that I put thought into was balancing the rat/human look. I wanted to avoid the sharp angle on the snout because I feel like that's more dog-like, but it seems like all I really did was fill that area in with a little slope. The balancing the eyes was also tricky, but they're definitely human-type.

Graphiteman's design gave me some ideas, too. You mentioned how I put the ears on, and it was deliberate. Most mouse ears are drawn flaired-out like Gadget Hackwrench or poking out the top of the head like Mrs. Brisby, and I wanted to do neither. They're much more human-like, really, but have a rodent flavor. At least that's what I'm aiming for. I'm going to redesign my character, and I'll make more poses and expressions than last time, plus the turn around.

Thanks for all the advice.

[sajdera]

I want to say that I really appreciate your responses, Ken and Graphiteman. I don't see this forum as a magic tutoring-machine! Not only did you guys kick down some solid advice, you drew some cool stuff and took the time out of your day to scan, format, and upload the drawings. That really made my day, today. I got right to work as soon as I could this evening, and I'll post my revised model as soon as it's done, probably in the Show & Tell thread.

Billy

P.S. and I'll never crumple a drawing again! (lair!)

[Jabberwocky]

This is an excellent little help thread, actually. I hope it won't be considered hi-jacking if I take the chance to present a problem of my own I've been working on for a while.

It's about this character:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v430/krakelwok/ArkConst.jpg

I'm still trying to get the design right so it stays simple enough and can easily be turned around. The brow region is rather hard, I think. I defintely want to keep it low and pointy but something tells me a little creative cheating might enhance the overall effect in the profile view. In short, I need some fresh eyes to look over this. Any suggestions? (That scribble on the right is a slapdash thing I threw down to get my basic idea of a profile across - don't bother with the messed up proportions for now.)

[Ken Davis]

The 3/4 angle has some nice design elements to it, but the profile seems stunted and rigid.
What I've learned is that if you try to draw it like its some kind of mathematical, isometric projection then it never seems to work. Don't try to lock it into some "human" pose, because its not human, its a cartoon. Push it and pull it in any needed direction until it looks "right" and appealing.
Treat the image like a pose--because that is what it is and do the best rendering of it in that pose.

In the profile, I'd push out his brow further, and push the back of his hair out by about 50%. His neck looks like it could jut back quite a ways from the skull to the shouldrers, because the 3/4 angle tends to foreshorten things. You can cheat that there--and it would give the back of the hair a lot more travel.
I'd throw the right side-lock of hair out in front of the face in the profile (again, as a cheat) just so you get a bit more life to the hair and the overall look. Make sure you keep his brow/eyessame distance from his lower jaw too--the profile raises the distance between.

[Jabberwocky]

Thanks! Now, let's see if I got you right. Again, I sketched this in front of the screen.

[Ken Davis]

Try pushing the hair out more--like crazy more.
Be bold, daring........push it until its about 10% too uncomfortable for you, and then let the image sit for a few hours.
Come back and evaluate it and see if you wanna keep it as it is, or pull it back a notch.
You might see something new you like in the pushed image then.

Here's kind of what I mean:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y270/KenDavisCartoons/Jabber.jpg

Maybe not as simple as your design-and there's a LOT to be said in favour of keeping it simple--but also in pushing it too. Play with it, see what you think.

[Jabberwocky]

Yup, I can definitely see where I need to go. The main problem really was the profile silhouette. I went over my last post's sketch once more, elongating the nose/mouth region as you suggested and working a little design element into the brow/nose border. I want to be careful about the neck and hair, though, even if that's not as daring an approach as may be needed. I'll decide on that after I've let the whole thing sit for a night. A couple of years ago, the necks of my characters tended to be ridiculously long. (Ridiculous as in "bad", not "funny".) I also want to be careful about the overall balance of the head in profile view. The character gets a definite hunch into his posture thanks to the way the neck sticks out at an angle but that's OK, it'll help the personality.

[darliester]

It's not that I'm completely stumped on this whole thing (yet!), but I'd be really stoked to get some serious, frank, tough-love-kinda feedback on my character model (or anything I do). :o


Saj, since you are terminally cute I must jump in here. Ken is a terrific artist , you can tell from just his linework alone and while I agree that stronger shapes are in order, here is what I think. As strong drawers we tend to change things to what we favor and in doing that often we lose a bit of what you intended the drawing to be so here is my interpretation. I've tried to retain everything you had in the original and just boost the basic structure. A bit more forehed in the profile and structure out the cheeks to a bit of a square like a baby faace , small cheeks and larger forehead. Hope this helps.

[sajdera]

I'm so extremely stoked right now that I'm practically bouncing off the walls. I feel like I'm learning so much! It's exciting!

First, I think the third rendition of Jabberwocky's character is so awesome, it makes my skin crawl. I though I was going to far with my character because all of his facial features are below the halfway line on the head, but this crazy guy that Jabberwocky made is seriously edgy.

Now, what I did today was my very first turn-around with what I retro-determined to be the construction of my original drawing. I did it in my sketch book and then I scanned it and put each pose into a 2 fps GIF (by the way, I tried to make the model swivel on what I thought was it's center of balance).

http://billysajdera.com/swf/06-0518-turnaround.jpg
http://billysajdera.com/swf/06-0518-turnaround.gif

I've already spotted some stuff in the GIF that doesn't look right, but I also wonder how it might turn out if I take it to the animation disc?

Also, to Darliester, your rendition of my character has blown me away into the stratosphere. The alteration to the snout was one thing, but the way you created that neck I've been longing for really did it for me! You're coolest lurker ever! :o

Billy

[Jabberwocky]

Did you draw the basic construction turnaround on a single piece of paper? To make it look more even, using an animation disk might help. The backlight will help you keep the proportions right and you can roll your drawings to spot inconsistencies.
I'm quite OK with the profile view of my own character after a good night's sleep. I don't want to draw out the nose more because the guy is supposed to have a comparably small, flat and skeletal-looking conk. The overbite is also extreme enough for my taste. The character belongs to a group of three, all of which have slight aesthetical problems in the lower jaw region. The overbite is most pronounced in another one of them.

[J2 Cool]

Hm, there's some great great help in this thread. And while I don't have the knowledge to contribute as they are, I did find some old Disney model sheets to nearly anyone of their films, while poking randomly around the net. Check it out.. http://animationarchive.net/Model%20Sheets/index.php

http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/5039/bernard7uk.jpg (http://animationarchive.net/Feature%20Films/The%20Rescuers/Model%20Sheets/BERNARD.jpg)

This Rescuers model sheet immediately reminded me of this thread. Hope it helps somewhat.

[darliester]

Also, to Darliester, your rendition of my character has blown me away into the stratosphere. The alteration to the snout was one thing, but the way you created that neck I've been longing for really did it for me! You're coolest lurker ever! :o

Billy


Thanks Billy. Jab is right though, you should be flipping these. As should I but being that I an lazy I did them on the Cintiq. This is totally faked but should give you some ideas.

[sajdera]

I find it hard to believe a lazy person could afford a Cintiq. Thanks the tips!

[darliester]

I find it hard to believe a lazy person could afford a Cintiq. Thanks the tips!

Oh but we can. I hate having to search for more animation paper :)

[ScatteredLogical]

There's always debt, too, Saj. I mean, c'mon, for a Cintiq!? ;)

[Jabberwocky]

And she called me Jab right away! Most others go through that "Jabber"-phase I'm not so fond of. Brownie points, brownie points! :D

I took those other two guys from the trio and sketched profiles of them.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v430/krakelwok/MalfaryusCast2006.jpg
The girl was tricky because of the glasses. Bending them inward constitues a major cheat but I feel it's necessary. If she had another eye shape in the profile view, one not influenced by her glasses, that would lead to confusion. I'm still open for suggestions, of course.

[darliester]

And she called me Jab right away! Most others go through that "Jabber"-phase I'm not so fond of. Brownie points, brownie points! :D

I took those other two guys from the trio and sketched profiles of them.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v430/krakelwok/MalfaryusCast2006.jpg
The girl was tricky because of the glasses. Bending them inward constitues a major cheat but I feel it's necessary. If she had another eye shape in the profile view, one not influenced by her glasses, that would lead to confusion. I'm still open for suggestions, of course.


Cool designs Jab (accumulating more brownie points I hope :) ) ! Very unique stylizing and the linework is deceptive because the self trace really sells the look. I LOVE when people go for shape rather than straight black line. Are these for a short or series ? Very interesting and they look fun to animate.

Now yes, my feeling about Saj's design is that the important thing is to retain the appeal. You will be surprised how fudging some of that structure can work and there are lots of ways to get around that cheat . It's an abstract yes, but after a number of years animating these are what make 2D different from 3D. In 2D , structure is implied and not actual so in many ways you are manipulation the audience with the "impression " of structure rather than actual structure. As long as I can convince the audience there is structure there you can get away with a lot. The thing that the original design had was I think charm and that you can't buy. I am very much against sacrificing charm for design so I think you should lean towards what keeps it there. The hardest thing you will ever really do is get exactly what is in your head onto paper.

And don't forget, there are also two other ways to get a Cintiq SL, theft and getting your boyfriend or parents to buy one (of course this requires a far more complex planning ).

Dars

[Jabberwocky]

Cool designs Jab (accumulating more brownie points I hope :) ) ! Very unique stylizing and the linework is deceptive because the self trace really sells the look. I LOVE when people go for shape rather than straight black line. Are these for a short or series ? Very interesting and they look fun to animate.
Thank you! I'm not working professionally in animation at the moment, sadly, but another member of this board and I are trying every now and then to get our ideas seen by people. Oh Yeah! Cartoons was earlier last year and our next project will be a pitch ad in Animation Magazine. He'll forward his project, FlyGuy, which he wrote and I illustrated, and mine will be the one from which those characters are, Malfaryus. It's a fantasy parody. There's more on both in my thread at The Daily Sketch.
Are you currently in the biz? (Cintiq and all - should think so.)

[darliester]

Thank you! I'm not working professionally in animation at the moment, sadly, but another member of this board and I are trying every now and then to get our ideas seen by people. Oh Yeah! Cartoons was earlier last year and our next project will be a pitch ad in Animation Magazine. He'll forward his project, FlyGuy, which he wrote and I illustrated, and mine will be the one from which those characters are, Malfaryus. It's a fantasy parody. There's more on both in my thread at The Daily Sketch.
Are you currently in the biz? (Cintiq and all - should think so.)


Well I like the look and really had no suggestions because of that. Nice to see that kind of pushed design being used. You definately draw like you are professionally trained. Very nice. Good luck on the project, I am totally jazzed by independant work that is that strong.

Myself , I have pretty extensive employment experience and up till the end of last year I was working but I really got tired of working for everyone else so I did the scary thing. I turned down the job offers and started my own project with a freind who's a writer. Now this is probably a suicidal thing to do but I had enough put away that I could say "screw doing another god damn cereal commercial or endless feature that takes forever to animate and then ends up having to be changed because somebody things it isn't politically correct enough". I mean , I've done it for too long and after all that it was time to have some fun wasn't it ? Till about a month ago I did everything on paper but for the first time I decided to invest in myself (hence the Cintiq) . I refuse to go full 3D as many of my freinds who went to Pixar did. I am totally happy for them and love their films but total 3D is not me. That was the long answer for "Yes, I am". :)

[Jabberwocky]

That sounds like a pretty brave decision. I sincerely hope it works out for you in the long run! I'm also interested, of course. Anything you can share of your past and present endeavours?
I was almost entirely self-taught until 2002 when I got a year's worth of professional animation training at a school in Cologne. Some members of this board taught/teach there or had/have other connections to the students. I've continued my self-training ever since, reading books, combing the net for inspiration, talking to all manner of people in the business and drawing, drawing, drawing.

[ecec]

Maybe one of you guys with a Cintiq could help me with some of the probs I've been having with mine?, as detailed in the recently-bumped thread I made on it? ;)

I like the mouse-ears Chuck Jones used in the cricket cartoons. :) They're just completely dissimilar to the Mickey-Mouse-variants seen everywhere else; they're more interesting visually as a result, I think.
http://www.firstanimationart.com/CJCRI1.html
...cuz at some point you were guys were talking about mouse ears, right? :)

[darliester]

That sounds like a pretty brave decision. I sincerely hope it works out for you in the long run! I'm also interested, of course. Anything you can share of your past and present endeavours?
I was almost entirely self-taught until 2002 when I got a year's worth of professional animation training at a school in Cologne. Some members of this board taught/teach there or had/have other connections to the students. I've continued my self-training ever since, reading books, combing the net for inspiration, talking to all manner of people in the business and drawing, drawing, drawing.


Well much thanks Jab but I think it was less brave than it was a selfish desire to control my own destiny. After many years of servitude , honestly , I got tired of it. The money was of course terrific , and that I miss a bit but not as much as I missed being a normal human being. Having a life because really, places like Disney and DreamWorks make you work all the time. It's far different than in the old days when the 9 old men were there and they would take an afternoon off to go golfing . And frankly , though I loved the animation and thought it was fine craftsmanship I felt the films were uninspired.

Being self taught is terrific. That means that you learn without rules and frankly I think thats the best way. It's nice to admire and enjoy beautiful animation other people do but as an independant you get to use your own style and not to have to imitate the general populace. The best people are not really the ones that fit in so much either. In fact, all the best people I know are rather eccentric. I think just a year is good enough to grab the basics and get yourself disciplined in a bit of the production process. The most beautiful thing in art is the curiousity you bring to it. A natural desire to explore and look at things in a different way and all that research you are doing on your own ,that is what will make you weather almost anything.

And I will say this one thing , it is not that you must make yourself draw so much as knowing what you are going to draw. Your hand will learn to respond to your brain (this is construction ) but it is always your brain that needs to be unchained . Learning how not to compromise your vision with the limitions of what your hand can do (sounds weird I know ) . By the time you finish animating Arkturus you will feel that you are only just ready to animate him. That is the sad fact of our art .

[Jabberwocky]

Well much thanks Jab but I think it was less brave than it was a selfish desire to control my own destiny.

I think everybody's entitled to a little selfishness when it's about destiny-control.

The money was of course terrific , and that I miss a bit but not as much as I missed being a normal human being.

It was? Why, I've heard horror stories of those direct-to-video productions ...

Being self taught is terrific. That means that you learn without rules and frankly I think thats the best way. It's nice to admire and enjoy beautiful animation other people do but as an independant you get to use your own style and not to have to imitate the general populace.

A unique style of design and animation may be the hardest thing to achieve in the field. This isn't false modesty now, just being realistic, when I tell you I'm humbled every single day. Only today I had a look at some of Ben Balisteri's stuff for Disney - yowza!

And I will say this one thing , it is not that you must make yourself draw so much as knowing what you are going to draw. Your hand will learn to respond to your brain (this is construction ) but it is always your brain that needs to be unchained .

Exactly! Nothing beats that heart-stopping realisation that worlds are growing under one's very hands. Call it my god complex but it's better than golf/sex/crack/insert euphoria-inducing hallucinogen.

By the time you finish animating Arkturus you will feel that you are only just ready to animate him. That is the sad fact of our art .

It's also what keeps us going. I see it like the journey being the reward.

[darliester]

Yes , Ben's great isn't he. As are Shannon Tindle and Shane Prigmore. There are some magnificent designers out there who make art so much more fun. Good company to keep for sure. And you know what's funny, they are really nice people. That is the part that is hardest to retain in all the political baloney is the business. Artists with talent and personality are the sexiest human beings alive .

[Jabberwocky]

On the odd occasion, I was raked across the coals by top notch professionals, which I believe is part of the game - but it's always been a learning experience both on the constructive criticism and the human relationship side. Nietzsche was right, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. I also made it my rule to never be above or afraid of asking for help and advice. (And I've learned to take things cum grano salis. ;))
You're right,Tindle and Prigmore are exceptional. There are two contemporary illustrators I'm very, very fond of; Brain Froud and Tony DiTerlizzi. Briefly talked to the latter - amazingly talented and friendly. Think you'd like him. I'd like to see his stuff animated one day.

Working on frontal views now which will also need tweaking. But that's for tomorrow. -yawn-